PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

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PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Darkw0nder » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:57 am

Purpose: An exciting and rewarding PvP element is an attention grabbing feature in an MMO. The current state of PvP in RPG MO is pathetic at best. I want to identify issues and suggest a resolution to those issues.

Issues:
1.) 99% of fights end in 1 round of combat
2.) Gear is too expensive to risk
3.) There is no incentive to fight higher leveled players
4.) Scouting + world hop = dead skillers


Goals:
Make fights last longer
Decrease max hits
Decrease chance to block
Increase the need for food
Increase reward for kills
Create a reasonable KO potential
Decrease the value of items risked


Implementation:
I suggest adding a PvP armor salesman that sells a level 1 def pant/legs worth 250k wiki. This armor can have a set or modular defense (ie. Defense = Defense level * 2.5) AND a large dmg reduction 50-60% to bring KO potential down.

Ideally fights will last longer and 2-3 hitting opponents will be the goal. This may take 20-30 rounds of combat to achieve etc. This gives people survivability and adds in an element of skill, requiring you to "catch" people when they try to run.

Put this on the test server and let people try it out for a week or so.
Last edited by Darkw0nder on Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby alexjeff » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:01 am

+1, agree with some points, disagree with others, but I agree that PVP should change.

Instead of a special armor piece, there should be a general melee and magic block when fighting other people, like 50%.... and then lord wild man won't be the one-punch-man. >:D
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Darkw0nder » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:52 pm

alexjeff wrote:+1, agree with some points, disagree with others, but I agree that PVP should change.

Instead of a special armor piece, there should be a general melee and magic block when fighting other people, like 50%.... and then lord wild man won't be the one-punch-man. >:D


So the logic behind the special armor was that even if regular armor had dmg reduction in PvP that 7 iteming would continue because no one wants to risk 50-100m by being fully geared.

I suggested a modular defense on the armor so players are still rewarded for having a high defense level and pures dont get any advantage by wearing the armor at level 1 def.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Rebelmoon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:10 pm

If pvp fighting is changed I wish to add one thought to consider.

Why would you ever want to kill another player if the loot potential is a few 100k to nothing?

Suggestion: Remove keeping items on death (when in nml), or at the very least the ability to use a pop to protect your items. PvP is about the risk of killing someone and taking their loot, but potentially losing your own if you fail. It sort of defeats the whole purpose when they can keep 7 items + pet + pet's inventory. Wheres the benefit to the pker? There is no feeling of danger in nml when you can hold onto so many items without risking them. Thanks.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Darkw0nder » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:13 am

Rebelmoon wrote:If pvp fighting is changed I wish to add one thought to consider.

Why would you ever want to kill another player if the loot potential is a few 100k to nothing?

Suggestion: Remove keeping items on death (when in nml), or at the very least the ability to use a pop to protect your items. PvP is about the risk of killing someone and taking their loot, but potentially losing your own if you fail. It sort of defeats the whole purpose when they can keep 7 items + pet + pet's inventory. Wheres the benefit to the pker? There is no feeling of danger in nml when you can hold onto so many items without risking them. Thanks.


Only protecting 2 items would further degrade PvP by unnecessarily increasing risk to pkers.

My suggestion is to bring a reasonable level of risk to PvP to increase the number of active pkers. This should lead to numerous fights with 250k-500k risk instead of rare fights with zero risk.

With the implementation of my suggestion 7 iteming (fighting with zero risk) is nearly eradicated because PvP armor makes it almost impossible for a 7 itemer to get a kill. They would be KOed in the first round of combat due having zero damage reduction.

Meanwhile you can still skill or train with 7 items in NML without increasing risk.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Rebelmoon » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:19 am

Darkw0nder wrote:Only protecting 2 items would further degrade PvP by unnecessarily increasing risk to pkers.


Risk is supposed to be a part of pvp. Making more items at risk isn't degrading pvp its improving it because that player whos out to kill you might get counter killed so everyone must make a choice on what they are willing to risk for that greater potential of loot because nobody can keep items they bring (except maybe pet, but not its inventory) and the basic 2 items I suppose.Just an additional thought on how to change nml. A skiller with no gear is supposed to die to a full geared player 99.99%-100% of time it just makes sense, but the killer shouldn't feel safe until he's back at chest.

I still like what you got going, but would like to see more details. The goals are great but how do you make those goals happen in a fair way that balances people having a chance to run away without making killing someone near impossible. Also, 4.) Scouting + world hop = dead skillers is what pking is about so I don't think that should get changed. The one hit ko's are the biggest issue imo with nml as you pointed out, theres no gameplay there, no chance to fight back, its just lacking in every shape and form. The special gear with damage reduction does sound highly promising.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Darkw0nder » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:20 am

Rebelmoon wrote:
Darkw0nder wrote:Only protecting 2 items would further degrade PvP by unnecessarily increasing risk to pkers.


Risk is supposed to be a part of pvp. Making more items at risk isn't degrading pvp its improving it because that player whos out to kill you might get counter killed so everyone must make a choice on what they are willing to risk for that greater potential of loot because nobody can keep items they bring (except maybe pet, but not its inventory) and the basic 2 items I suppose.Just an additional thought on how to change nml. A skiller with no gear is supposed to die to a full geared player 99.99%-100% of time it just makes sense, but the killer shouldn't feel safe until he's back at chest.

I still like what you got going, but would like to see more details. The goals are great but how do you make those goals happen in a fair way that balances people having a chance to run away without making killing someone near impossible. Also, 4.) Scouting + world hop = dead skillers is what pking is about so I don't think that should get changed. The one hit ko's are the biggest issue imo with nml as you pointed out, theres no gameplay there, no chance to fight back, its just lacking in every shape and form. The special gear with damage reduction does sound highly promising.



Two item protection would completely kill PvP. No one wants to risk as is and NML would be completely safe to skill in.

Balance:
- There should be between a 2% and 5% chance to 3 hit an similarly skilled opponent.
- Pures should win against non-pures of the same combat level
- PvP armor should sell for 80%-100% of wiki. 50% and people might not consider PvP worth it.
- Modular DMG reduction on armor based on HP level. HP level * .5 = max dmg reduction. Caps at 60% (see below)

A maxed player with 120HP players can hit 200 with 1h+5 slot = 60 max dmg in a mirror matchup. = 30 dmg on averge = 90 dmg in 3 hits
At my current 110HP I can only hit 140 or so with 1h+5 slot = 56 max dmg in a mirror matchup = 28 dmg on average = 84 dmg in 3 hits
A player with 100HP melee only with spear hit 100 = 50 max dmg in a mirror matchup or 40dmg vs a 120HP player = nearly impossible to 3 hit.

I think this idea would close the gap that currently exists where 119HP vs 120HP = losing fights 95% of the time because of gear upgrades.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Crution » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:46 pm

I also think PvP needs an overhaul. Some of the ideas brought forward are quite complicated though (no problem with it, just needs a lot of consideration and work). I would suggest a first step to more balanced combat would be to change the first hit system. In almost every instance the person who gets the first hit, will win, making stats kind of useless at a certain point, and pking very arbitrary. Maybe simultaneous hitting could be introduced for PvP (would need to come up with a solution to both players dying on the same hit of course.) I feel like this would already make combat much better.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Kert » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:59 pm

Character skill tree idea is on the table already..

So gear deterimnates eventually 60-75% fiight result..

Char skill tree idea.., do tasks, to gain skill points.
Invest points into skill tree (different trees).

add 1 point to defender tree, get +2 base armor.. etc..
add 1 point to berserker tree, get +1 attack, -1 base armor.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Rebelmoon » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:37 pm

oooo sounds epic, can't wait to see this in action.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Darkw0nder » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:21 am

Kert wrote:Character skill tree idea is on the table already..

So gear deterimnates eventually 60-75% fiight result..

Char skill tree idea.., do tasks, to gain skill points.
Invest points into skill tree (different trees).

add 1 point to defender tree, get +2 base armor.. etc..
add 1 point to berserker tree, get +1 attack, -1 base armor.


Sounds interesting.

Obviously I dont know the full scope of this update but if regular gear is still required then we can expect NML and PvP to remain in a current 7 item state. If thats the case cheap dmg reducing armor may be the way to make PvP a popular activity.
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby raawrus » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:17 pm

this triggers me
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Darkw0nder » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:08 pm

raawrus wrote:this triggers me


I'm doing gods work. How do you feel about the suggestion?
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby Rexitus » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:07 pm

Biggest problem is Risk vs Reward, being way too low. Like you risk alot, unless you are half naked with potion but whats to gain in NML?

Like is there some sick training spots?! or what?
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Re: PVP Theory & Proposed changes [Trigger Warning]

Postby raawrus » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:26 am

I don't agree with most if these suggestions, but I do agree about pvp armor, if pker kills someone with this armor on, coins should be dropped (i.e void set and fire cape in rs). I believe that most other suggestions are harder to implement, the simplest way to fix pvp in this game would be to add eating during fights. This would make fights last longer and allow for less 1-2 hit ko.
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