RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules [deprecated]

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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby hidric » Tue May 24, 2016 5:58 pm

I would like to ask for an expanded clarification on rule #3: "3. No Interaction Between Multiple Accounts" in light of the upcoming GUILD update.

A. I feel like the "spirit" of this rule is to keep people from funneling coins into a main, essentially using multiple sub-accounts to build a single master character. i.e. quantitatively measurable gains passing from alt to master. This would apply to growing either materials or coins. For example: Master account is training forging, sub account A and B mine ores and give to master so he can focus on just forging. Another example: Sub account A grinds on Emerald Dragon scales, sells them low on market, Master buys them and adds his own, then resells them all at a higher price. Both these examples demonstrate quantitative gains for the Master account.

B. As called out in the Feb 05, 2016 update news and in the updated rules(http://mo.ee/rules.html), 3rd party assistance in this is also a bannable offense. For example: Sub A mines gold chunks, gives them to Friend A, who then passes them on to the Master account. Again, this is an easily measurable gain to the Master account.

Assuming A & B to be correct, where then does non-measurable gain fall? Further, and more to the point, how many degrees of separation does an interaction need to be to not violate the rules?

Example of non-measurable gain: fair market value for a material or "finished good". Sub A mines, smelts, and crafts a sword and posts on market. UNKNOWN Player buys, enchants, and sells on market. Master account buys the sword and uses it. Because value was added to the item by a 3rd party and overall value of each character remains constant (coins for items), has this violated rule #3?

Another non-measurable gain: Low level characters providing mats for crafters, who then turn around a buy crafted items from the same. Random Joe mines uncut diamonds, sells on market. Random Ted buys uncut diamonds and white gold chunks, cuts and smelts, makes a white gold diamond ring, sells on market. Random Joe's alt John buys it: Is this 3rd party alt trading?

Example of degrees of separation: multiply skill conglomeration items like "7 souls helmet". Sub A mines fire stone for ore and opals. he sells fire stone to forger, and opals to jeweler. forger turns fire stone chunks into bars. jeweler cuts opals, collects other gems, and passes them to forger. Some dragon scales are bought from market. Sub A's Master provides the golden crown, etc., etc...5 - 7 different accounts (not alts) are involved in making this, multiple high level skills, etc. etc... end of the day, bottom line, a "Guild" of individual characters all with specialized skills combined efforts to build several of these single items, can the Master account use one? How can the Master account even know if his Sub A's fire stone and opals were used? if Sub A sells opals on the market, can Master never buy an item from the market that uses opals in fear of it being the "same opals?"

The reason I ask this is that as we get closer to Guilds, I want to make sure that as part of the rpg.mo community, myself or my alts don't get banned! The definition of 'guild' is such that multiple people/craftsmen/merchants work together towards a common interest or goal, for their mutual benefit and/or protection. So other than the social aspect in game, working together as a team on projects or item crafting or boss hunting etc. is going to be the main focus I would think? But the closer you bring a group of people, the more likely intentional and unintentional interaction will take place. But where is the line? Where does "Alt Trading" or "3rd party trading" stop, and "Guild" start?

I don't want to cheat, I don't want to get banned, and I don't want to constantly stress about who bought what from whom and in what state. I can't keep track of all pieces to the puzzles we are putting together: Forging, Fletching, and to some extend Jewelry. Please, Please, Please clarify in a definitive way so we can all play happily together.

Happy moo-ing,
hidric

P.S. I would love to discuss and debate this in a verbal forum with multiple community, moderator, and developer representatives.
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby redringerspore » Tue May 24, 2016 7:22 pm

This is a very important matter, needs addressed. A person can accidentally alt trade...
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby Margus » Tue May 24, 2016 7:38 pm

Alts wont be allowed to join same guilds.

I guess there needs to be some kind of measure for what is an accidental trade and at what threshold it is fairly obvious alt trading if materials are traded at non regular market prices.
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby redringerspore » Tue May 24, 2016 11:16 pm

Margus wrote:I guess there needs to be some kind of measure for what is an accidental trade and at what threshold it is fairly obvious alt trading if materials are traded at non regular market prices.


I often make trades for 0 coins... almost every day. I would hate to be banned for being in a trusting circle of friends. The goal is equal support, not unbalanced trade. Individuals can "commit alt trade" when they are not alt trading at all.
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby hidric » Tue May 24, 2016 11:53 pm

Margus wrote:at what threshold it is fairly obvious alt trading


That would be most helpful indeed. We want to stay within the rules, but with some of these items it just isn't realistic to have one character acting alone: 7 souls for example, or high level arrows for another. Excepting if your name is nox or sunhsiaomay or some such, the only way to accomplish any of these items are to work together, which, in a social game like this makes sense and should be encouraged. But even working together, to make the 7 souls helmet you need high level jewelry, high level forging, high level mining, high combat, high level fletching...and a ton of luck :)

If you have a couple people working together with or without their alts, this becomes a little more reasonable without anyone's main character gaining significant financial benefit. Hence guilds, but even still most guilds will be hard pressed to be able to create or afford higher level gear simply because the time required to level that high across that many skills with only mains to work from.

One other distinction is that i feel that the term alt is being used loosely. In the spirit of things, people should be playing all accounts like they matter, not as slave/master accounts. Keep alt trading ban in place for non-registered or not registered to same user accounts? People need to registered accounts, same user or different user same ip. unregistered accounts with same ip should be considered differently? Also, we should be careful not to expose people's alts either, but it may be their choice: trade or keep secrets, not both :)

Okay I think I've hashed the problem enough, solution ideas (these were community generated with about 5 people's input):
- remove alt trading ban but have value tracking? keeps track of ratio between characters to keep them within limits? (this would prevent funneling or master/slave trading)
- remove alt support (though this will displease people on college campuses or work firewalls, and give people with multiple ip's a distinct advantage)
- alt trading market where raw materials are tradable, but prices are fixed? (perhaps based on mean price of current market? may be too developer heavy?)


More to come as we think of them. Just trying to help brainstorm ideas.
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby sandycheeks » Wed May 25, 2016 4:40 am

hidric wrote:- remove alt trading ban but have value tracking? keeps track of ratio between characters to keep them within limits? (this would prevent funneling or master/slave trading)
- remove alt support (though this will displease people on college campuses or work firewalls, and give people with multiple ip's a distinct advantage)
- alt trading market where raw materials are tradable, but prices are fixed? (perhaps based on mean price of current market? may be too developer heavy?)


+1 to any one of these :P

Or just allow people to trade whatever to whoever ;)

Do agree though, the alt trading rule needs to be amended/added to somehow.
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby Marty McFly » Thu May 26, 2016 3:49 am

either:

1) Highlight or Remove rule breaking buy/sell offers within each accounts market window.

2)force Wiki or Overpriced buy/sell offers on alts.
*make certain rares/event items non-tradeable.
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby hidric » Sat May 28, 2016 7:53 am

wiki price for items would be an interesting start. and allowing 3rd party if it is modified: smelted, crafted, etc. maybe?

thanks,
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby teiyi » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:04 am

I was wondering about posting a sell offer on my main for arrows, probably azurite spirit/maple arrows for say normal rate of feather 3.5k + azurite bar 1k (yeah that might be a lil low) + spirit log 500 = 5k price then i go on my alt and post a buy offer for that arrow for 5.1k someone will likely buy my arrows and sell to my alt for the 100 coin profit.

The reason I don't see this as being unfair is because the price is reasonable my alt isnt getting for cheap and im not making a ton of profit on my main odds are someone would probably buy the arrows eventually for their own use anyways. I just have trouble getting anyone to make arrows for my alt cus i post buy offer and announce for days and no one sells or even says they'd make for a higher price.

So is that against the rules because i am essentially transferring items to my alt through a 3rd party even though both prices are reasonable?
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby Margus » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:15 am

teiyi wrote:I was wondering about posting a sell offer on my main for arrows, probably azurite spirit/maple arrows for say normal rate of feather 3.5k + azurite bar 1k (yeah that might be a lil low) + spirit log 500 = 5k price then i go on my alt and post a buy offer for that arrow for 5.1k someone will likely buy my arrows and sell to my alt for the 100 coin profit.

The reason I don't see this as being unfair is because the price is reasonable my alt isnt getting for cheap and im not making a ton of profit on my main odds are someone would probably buy the arrows eventually for their own use anyways. I just have trouble getting anyone to make arrows for my alt cus i post buy offer and announce for days and no one sells or even says they'd make for a higher price.

So is that against the rules because i am essentially transferring items to my alt through a 3rd party even though both prices are reasonable?

Why don't you make arrows on your alt?
I dont like this if you put the arrows for sale at a very low price to a friend and he sells them at a bit higher to your alt but still relatively cheap and lower than market value then I will still consider this alt trading.
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby Jake768 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:08 am

" Main accounts are not allowed to escort, or clear mob path, for lower level alternate characters as this is also bannable."
- So I would just like to question this rule a bit. Why was this rule ever implemented? The staff is able to see if there is any account interaction through the market etc, so why is it illegal to clear mobs for an weaker alt? I'm sure this is just another rule placed in hopes that it would help to prevent alt trading, but if you can see all market logs anyways, why make this illegal? It is possible to clear mobs for an alt, and not trade between the alt and the main. I don't feel that having any interaction between a main and an alt be illegal, is reasonable in the least. :|
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby sandycheeks » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:45 am

Agreed. Many players including moderators clear paths for their alt. Is this just an old outdated rule?
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby filux » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:25 am

You don't see the whole picture. This is a part of "no profits thx to alts".

All depends how and how long and how often you are "clearing mob path". Some examples:
- If you are doing this in a way to leave "1hp" for mobs to "accidentally" :lol: give a chance for 1 hit and easy loot for your alt then this should be a ban without even thinking.
- If you are clearing a path "only for your alt" so for example you found an empty world and you are "fighting only when needed" e.g. by waiting idle for a moment when alt want to pass, then this also isn't ok, especially when you are trying to do this for whole hours/days/...
- If you are clearing a path "for everyone", by fighting "all the time" on commonly used world so also other players "use your help" there then Imo this is ~ fully ok :).
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby sandycheeks » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:40 am

filux wrote:All depends how long and how often you are "clearing mob path".


So, this is the same principal as, how long and how often you bot? No. If clearing mobs for an alt is against the rules, it's against the rules and players should be banned for it (i dont think they should, but if that IS a rule, many many players would be banned) not to mention how difficult, actually, time consuming it would be to track and check all of that for each player. Either make it an official rule and start checking and banning or deem this as an outdated rule.

Your ruling, Margus?
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Re: RPG MO Code of Conduct - Game rules

Postby filux » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:43 pm

Hehe, manipulated citation, not nice. :D Where are 3 dots as a mark that something was removed? :P Everyone can do this:
sandycheeks wrote:So, this is the same principal as, how long and how often you bot. clearing mobs for an alt is against the rules, it's against the rules and players should be banned for it. make it an official rule and start checking and banning.
So you just agreed with the rule, right? :lol:

This is quite simple. Try to always remember about "no profits thx to alts" and you will be safe.
The "clearing mob path" is not allowed for the same reason like market's transactions are not allowed between alts.

If ever any part of "no profits thx to alts" will be weakened or removed the whole point will be broken.
e.g. What is the difference between:
- allowing for an alts' advantage mining white gold without fighting mobs,
- mining white gold on the main character and then sending all white gold or coins to alt. :?:
Around same time spent on mining. Profit is profit. All things related to profit have to be restricted ... or all of them should be allowed at once. There is nothing logical in the middle.
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